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Thu Nov 6 12:03:22 EST 2008

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Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:00 PM
To: codetalk at myfloridacode.com
Subject: CodeTalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 10

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: work area for fire damaged SFR (Dennis Stanley)
   2. Unsubscribe (Simon Barker)
   3. E-Mail (Blight4338 at aol.com)
   4. Re: work area for fire damaged SFR (Christopher Banbury)
   5. unsubscribe (Clark, Leslie)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:57:00 -0600
From: "Dennis Stanley" <tstanley at i-1.net>
Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR
To: "Mark Cramer" <mcramer1 at tampabay.rr.com>,
	<codetalk at myfloridacode.com>
Message-ID: <C5663888BCF748AEBBDE101DDC7B221C at Stanley>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Here is a little history of existing building codes.  I do not know if
it 
will aid in the discussion or not.

http://www.huduser.org/publications/destech/narrp/toc_narrp.html

http://www.huduser.org/publications/destech/smartcodes.html

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Cramer" <mcramer1 at tampabay.rr.com>
To: <codetalk at myfloridacode.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR

I agree with the reasoning, but is that what the code says?

How about if the house is in a flood zone? Do we now throw perfect
reasoning
out the window?

Mark Cramer

-----Original Message-----
From: codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com
[mailto:codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com] On Behalf Of Bob Koning
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:33 PM
To: Don Meyer; Eric Kuritzky
Cc: codetalk at myfloridacode.com
Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR

This is perfect reasoning. I am impressed. Thank You.

R.J.Koning - Director
Contractors Institute
rjkoning at contractorsinstitute.com
8301 Joliet Street
Hudson, Fl 34667
727-863-5147

-----Original Message-----
From: codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com
[mailto:codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com] On Behalf Of Don Meyer
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:26 PM
To: Eric Kuritzky
Cc: codetalk at myfloridacode.com
Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR

An alteration is a decision you make to change your building.

A fire is not a decision, it is an unfortunate event or accident.

If the house had never burned, the owner would not be in the building
department getting a permit to replace trusses.
Without a fire, the house could last another sixty years and no one
would have a problem.  Since it did have a fire and if it is repaired
with original material and lasted sixty years you get the same results.

It is not making the house any less safe than it would have been before
the fire.  On that basis it could be classified a repair.

However, if I am spending money to fix my house I would want it to be
compliant and with the efficiencies of the current building codes.

Don Meyer, Architect
Coral Springs, FL

Eric Kuritzky wrote:
> If the roof has to be completely replaced, and I'm guessing most of
the
> interior walls, HVAC, electric and plumbing...then this wasn't a
simple
> 'damaged' building.
>
> Everyone seems to be trying to avoid the hard decision here, which is
that
> all the new work, which is just about everything, should be brought up
to
> existing code.
>
> Hell, we demand more code compliance from minor changes of tenant use,
a
> simple house addition, or simply installing new windows (which, if I
recall,
> must all bear product approval information and installation
compliance).
> Look at the requirements for installing a re-roof...it exceeds the
original
> roof requirements.
>
> If this house was sixty years old and had fabric covered electrical
wires,
> would you allow them to replace the electric similarly?  With fuses
instead
> of circuit breakers?
>
> Repairing damage would be to me 'localized' damage, not the whole
blasted
> roof.  Maybe part of the roof, or just the kitchen, but not
everything.
>
> If the HVAC needs to be replaced, would you permit an SEER of less
than 10,
> which might have been high when the home was built, if it had a SEER
rating
> at all.  Would you allow less insulation than the code now requires,
say,
> R-6 in the attic and nothing in the walls?
>
> Do you realize the precedent this can set?
>
> Eric D. Kuritzky, Architect, CBO
> Orlando
>
>
>
>
> On 11/5/08 4:53 PM, "Bob Koning" <Bob at ContractorsInstitute.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I agree Christopher, but if understand this situation the building
was
>> "damaged" by a fire.
>>
>>
>> R.J.Koning - Director
>> Contractors Institute
>> rjkoning at contractorsinstitute.com
>> 8301 Joliet Street
>> Hudson, Fl 34667
>> 727-863-5147
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com
>> [mailto:codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com] On Behalf Of Christopher
>> Banbury
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 2:16 PM
>> To: codetalk at myfloridacode.com
>> Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR
>>
>> I understand that BOs are routinely pressed right to the bleeding
edge
>> of code application. I can just see somebody coming in for a permit
>> whose house has been completely blown away by a tornado, foundation
and
>> all, and asking to build the same house back as a repair. What could
you
>> say? They say they want to build the same house back again.
>>
>>
>>
>> In my opinion, neither the intuitive nor the code definition of
'repair'
>> covers a scenario where entire systems are missing so that their
>> original configuration cannot be deduced. Repair speaks more toward
>> replacement of damaged elements. At some point the BO has to make a
>> decision as to whether there is enough of the damaged structure
>> remaining to determine what the pre-existing condition actually was.
If
>> an entire roof system and walls are missing and the applicant cannot
>> demonstrate what was there previously by photos or plans then calling
it
>> a repair is just an invitation for wholesale alteration.
>>
>>
>>
>> Christopher Banbury, PE
>>
>> President
>>
>>
>>
>> Ark Engineering, Inc.
>>
>> PO Box 10129, Brooksville, FL 34603
>>
>> 22 North Broad ST, Brooksville, FL 34601
>>
>> Phone: (352) 754-2424
>>
>> Fax: (352) 754-2412
>>
>> www.arkengineering.net <http://www.arkengineering.net>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
<http://download.autodesk.com/esd/designreview/SetupDesignReview2009.exe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> _______________________________________________
>> CodeTalk mailing list
>> CodeTalk at myfloridacode.com
>> Unsubscribe or change your options at:
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Unsubscribe or change your options at:
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>>
>
>
> Eric D. Kuritzky, Architect, CBO
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CodeTalk mailing list
> CodeTalk at myfloridacode.com
> Unsubscribe or change your options at:
> http://myfloridacode.com/mailman/listinfo/codetalk
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 13:25:27 +0000
From: "Simon Barker" <maintenanceguy at bellsouth.net>
Subject: [Florida Code Talk] Unsubscribe
To: "Dennis Stanley" <tstanley at i-1.net>,	"Mark Cramer"
	<mcramer1 at tampabay.rr.com>, <codetalk at myfloridacode.com>
Message-ID:

<110620081325.7225.4912F0470005902A00001C3922216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C0
4040A0DBF979A090A0C020E020A9B02070E03 at att.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Someone please remove me from this list
--
Simon J Barker 
The Maintenance Guy 
Tel 863 557 1058 
Fax 407 854 5695 
Assoc Member CFVRMA

-------------- Original message from "Dennis Stanley"
<tstanley at i-1.net>: -------------- 

> Here is a little history of existing building codes. I do not know if
it 
> will aid in the discussion or not. 
> 
> http://www.huduser.org/publications/destech/narrp/toc_narrp.html 
> 
> http://www.huduser.org/publications/destech/smartcodes.html 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark Cramer" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:00 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR 
> 
> 
> I agree with the reasoning, but is that what the code says? 
> 
> How about if the house is in a flood zone? Do we now throw perfect
reasoning 
> out the window? 
> 
> Mark Cramer 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com 
> [mailto:codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com] On Behalf Of Bob Koning 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:33 PM 
> To: Don Meyer; Eric Kuritzky 
> Cc: codetalk at myfloridacode.com 
> Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR 
> 
> This is perfect reasoning. I am impressed. Thank You. 
> 
> 
> R.J.Koning - Director 
> Contractors Institute 
> rjkoning at contractorsinstitute.com 
> 8301 Joliet Street 
> Hudson, Fl 34667 
> 727-863-5147 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com 
> [mailto:codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com] On Behalf Of Don Meyer 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:26 PM 
> To: Eric Kuritzky 
> Cc: codetalk at myfloridacode.com 
> Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR 
> 
> An alteration is a decision you make to change your building. 
> 
> A fire is not a decision, it is an unfortunate event or accident. 
> 
> If the house had never burned, the owner would not be in the building 
> department getting a permit to replace trusses. 
> Without a fire, the house could last another sixty years and no one 
> would have a problem. Since it did have a fire and if it is repaired 
> with original material and lasted sixty years you get the same
results. 
> 
> It is not making the house any less safe than it would have been
before 
> the fire. On that basis it could be classified a repair. 
> 
> However, if I am spending money to fix my house I would want it to be 
> compliant and with the efficiencies of the current building codes. 
> 
> Don Meyer, Architect 
> Coral Springs, FL 
> 
> 
> Eric Kuritzky wrote: 
> > If the roof has to be completely replaced, and I'm guessing most of 
> the 
> > interior walls, HVAC, electric and plumbing...then this wasn't a 
> simple 
> > 'damaged' building. 
> > 
> > Everyone seems to be trying to avoid the hard decision here, which
is 
> that 
> > all the new work, which is just about everything, should be brought
up 
> to 
> > existing code. 
> > 
> > Hell, we demand more code compliance from minor changes of tenant
use, 
> a 
> > simple house addition, or simply installing new windows (which, if I

> recall, 
> > must all bear product approval information and installation 
> compliance). 
> > Look at the requirements for installing a re-roof...it exceeds the 
> original 
> > roof requirements. 
> > 
> > If this house was sixty years old and had fabric covered electrical 
> wires, 
> > would you allow them to replace the electric similarly? With fuses 
> instead 
> > of circuit breakers? 
> > 
> > Repairing damage would be to me 'localized' damage, not the whole 
> blasted 
> > roof. Maybe part of the roof, or just the kitchen, but not 
> everything. 
> > 
> > If the HVAC needs to be replaced, would you permit an SEER of less 
> than 10, 
> > which might have been high when the home was built, if it had a SEER

> rating 
> > at all. Would you allow less insulation than the code now requires, 
> say, 
> > R-6 in the attic and nothing in the walls? 
> > 
> > Do you realize the precedent this can set? 
> > 
> > Eric D. Kuritzky, Architect, CBO 
> > Orlando 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 11/5/08 4:53 PM, "Bob Koning" wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> >> I agree Christopher, but if understand this situation the building 
> was 
> >> "damaged" by a fire. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> R.J.Koning - Director 
> >> Contractors Institute 
> >> rjkoning at contractorsinstitute.com 
> >> 8301 Joliet Street 
> >> Hudson, Fl 34667 
> >> 727-863-5147 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message----- 
> >> From: codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com 
> >> [mailto:codetalk-bounces at myfloridacode.com] On Behalf Of
Christopher 
> >> Banbury 
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 2:16 PM 
> >> To: codetalk at myfloridacode.com 
> >> Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR 
> >> 
> >> I understand that BOs are routinely pressed right to the bleeding 
> edge 
> >> of code application. I can just see somebody coming in for a permit

> >> whose house has been completely blown away by a tornado, foundation

> and 
> >> all, and asking to build the same house back as a repair. What
could 
> you 
> >> say? They say they want to build the same house back again. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> In my opinion, neither the intuitive nor the code definition of 
> 'repair' 
> >> covers a scenario where entire systems are missing so that their 
> >> original configuration cannot be deduced. Repair speaks more toward

> >> replacement of damaged elements. At some point the BO has to make a

> >> decision as to whether there is enough of the damaged structure 
> >> remaining to determine what the pre-existing condition actually
was. 
> If 
> >> an entire roof system and walls are missing and the applicant
cannot 
> >> demonstrate what was there previously by photos or plans then
calling 
> it 
> >> a repair is just an invitation for wholesale alteration. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Christopher Banbury, PE 
> >> 
> >> President 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Ark Engineering, Inc. 
> >> 
> >> PO Box 10129, Brooksville, FL 34603 
> >> 
> >> 22 North Broad ST, Brooksville, FL 34601 
> >> 
> >> Phone: (352) 754-2424 
> >> 
> >> Fax: (352) 754-2412 
> >> 
> >> www.arkengineering.net 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -------------- next part -------------- 
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> >> 
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> >> 
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> >> 0/attachment.gif 
> >> _______________________________________________ 
> >> CodeTalk mailing list 
> >> CodeTalk at myfloridacode.com 
> >> Unsubscribe or change your options at: 
> >> http://myfloridacode.com/mailman/listinfo/codetalk 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________ 
> >> CodeTalk mailing list 
> >> CodeTalk at myfloridacode.com 
> >> Unsubscribe or change your options at: 
> >> http://myfloridacode.com/mailman/listinfo/codetalk 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > Eric D. Kuritzky, Architect, CBO 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > CodeTalk mailing list 
> > CodeTalk at myfloridacode.com 
> > Unsubscribe or change your options at: 
> > http://myfloridacode.com/mailman/listinfo/codetalk 
> > 
> > 
> _______________________________________________ 
> CodeTalk mailing list 
> CodeTalk at myfloridacode.com 
> Unsubscribe or change your options at: 
> http://myfloridacode.com/mailman/listinfo/codetalk 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> CodeTalk mailing list 
> CodeTalk at myfloridacode.com 
> Unsubscribe or change your options at: 
> http://myfloridacode.com/mailman/listinfo/codetalk 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> CodeTalk mailing list 
> CodeTalk at myfloridacode.com 
> Unsubscribe or change your options at: 
> http://myfloridacode.com/mailman/listinfo/codetalk 
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 08:32:11 EST
From: Blight4338 at aol.com
Subject: [Florida Code Talk] E-Mail
To: codetalk at myfloridacode.com
Message-ID: <cdf.3dc16f79.36444bdb at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Would some one pleade remove my name from this group.

          B Light
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all
other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 08:56:38 -0500
From: "Christopher Banbury" <cbanbury at arkengineering.net>
Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR
To: <codetalk at myfloridacode.com>
Message-ID:
	<7B1DC80A6D13F34C918F63E61F49307E05FFA2 at leviathan.ARK.LOCAL>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

hehe, cut me some slack alle, in this thread I have clearly commiserated
with the difficult decision the BO has to make and acknowledging the
right of the BO to make it. I think u got me mixed up with someone else.

Christopher Banbury, PE

President

Ark Engineering, Inc.

PO Box 10129, Brooksville, FL 34603

22 North Broad ST, Brooksville, FL 34601

Phone: (352) 754-2424

Fax: (352) 754-2412

www.arkengineering.net <http://www.arkengineering.net> 

<http://download.autodesk.com/esd/designreview/SetupDesignReview2009.exe
> 

________________________________

From: ajduffjr at aol.com [mailto:ajduffjr at aol.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:01 PM
To: Christopher Banbury
Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR

I think if I were you, I would back up a little bit.  I for one, would
not even address this scenario due to the complete absence of "common
sense" associated with your statement.
BUT, if you were to enter my office with this argument, I would be more
that happy to show you the door.  Then, I would call DBPR and file a
complaint about some ding-a-ling engineer who wanted to B.S. me. Ah
shucks, but I'm talking to an engineer aren't I, nuff said.

Alle Duff, CBO

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Banbury <cbanbury at arkengineering.net>
To: codetalk at myfloridacode.com
Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 2:16 pm
Subject: Re: [Florida Code Talk] work area for fire damaged SFR

I understand that BOs are routinely pressed right to the bleeding edge
of code application. I can just see somebody coming in for a permit
whose house has been completely blown away by a tornado, foundation and
all, and asking to build the same house back as a repair. What could you
say? They say they want to build the same house back again.

In my opinion, neither the intuitive nor the code definition of 'repair'
covers a scenario where entire systems are missing so that their
original configuration cannot be deduced. Repair speaks more toward
replacement of damaged elements. At some point the BO has to make a
decision as to whether there is enough of the damaged structure
remaining to determine what the pre-existing condition actually was. If
an entire roof system and walls are missing and the applicant cannot
demonstrate what was there previously by photos or plans then calling it
a repair is just an invitation for wholesale alteration. 

Christopher Banbury, PE

President

Ark Engineering, Inc.

PO Box 10129, Brooksville, FL 34603

22 North Broad ST, Brooksville, FL 34601

Phone: (352) 754-2424

Fax: (352) 754-2412

www.arkengineering.net <http://www.arkengineering.net> 

<http://download.autodesk.com/esd/designreview/SetupDesignReview2009.exe
> 

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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:54:59 -0500
From: "Clark, Leslie" <lclark at onealinc.com>
Subject: [Florida Code Talk] unsubscribe
To: <codetalk at myfloridacode.com>
Message-ID:
	<B4A02266B6BF1D41B067DA496152207F036FBC5F at gvl38.onealinc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

please unsubscribe me - This group really helped answer some questions
for me on a job we were working on in fla. but its done now and time to
move on...

Thanks!

Leslie Clark
Oneal Inc.
10 Falcon Crest Dr.
Greenville SC 29607
864-298-2166

Visit O'Neal Inc. on the web at http://www.onealinc.com 

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